Wednesday, May 21, 2008

Should Fallen Pastors Be Restored?

This is from John MacArthur:

It has always saddened me over the years as I’ve watched church leaders bring a reproach on the church of Jesus Christ. What’s shocking to me is how frequently Christian leaders sin grossly, then step back into leadership almost as soon as the publicity dies away.

Some time ago I received a cassette tape that disturbed me greatly. It was a recording of the recommissioning service of a pastor who had made national news by confessing to an adulterous affair. After little more than a year of “counseling and rehabilitation,” this man was returning to public ministry with his church’s blessing.

That is happening everywhere. Restoration teams—equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor—wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”. Our church has received inquiries wondering if we have written guidelines or a workbook to help restore fallen pastors to leadership. Many no doubt expect that a church the size of ours would have a systematic rehabilitation program for sinning leaders.

Gross sin among Christian leaders is a signal that something is seriously wrong with the church. But an even greater problem is the lowering of standards to accommodate a leader’s sin. That the church is so eager to bring these men back into leadership is a symptom of rottenness at the core.

Some have claimed that a leader’s failure makes him more effective in shepherding fallen people. That is ludicrous. Should we drag the bottom of sin’s cesspool for the most heinous sinners to lead the church? Are they better able to understand the sinner? Certainly not! Our pattern for ministry is the sinless Son of God. The church is to be like Him and her leaders are to be our models of Christlikeness.

We must recognize that leadership in the church cannot be regarded lightly. The foremost requirement of a church leader is that he be above reproach (1 Timothy 3:2, 10; Titus 1:7). That is a difficult prerequisite, and not everyone can meet it.

There are some sins that irreparably shatter a man’s reputation and disqualify him from a ministry of leadership forever. Even Paul, man of God that he was, said he feared such a possibility. In 1 Corinthians 9:27 he says, “I discipline my body and make it my slave, so that, after I have preached to others, I myself will not be disqualified.”

When referring to his body, Paul obviously had sexual immorality in view. In 1 Corinthians 6:18 he describes it as a sin against one’s own body—sexual sin is in its own category. Certainly it disqualifies a man from church leadership since he permanently forfeits a blameless reputation as a one-woman man (Proverbs 6:33; 1 Timothy 3:2).

Where did we get the idea that a year’s leave of absence and some counseling can restore integrity to someone who has squandered his reputation and destroyed people’s trust? Certainly not from the Bible. Trust forfeited is not so easily regained. Once purity is sacrificed, the ability to lead by example is lost forever. As my friend Chuck Swindoll once commented when referring to this issue—it takes only one pin to burst a balloon.

What about forgiveness? Shouldn’t we be eager to restore our fallen brethren? To fellowship, yes. But not to leadership. It is not an act of love to return a disqualified man to public ministry; it is an act of disobedience.

By all means we should be forgiving. But we cannot erase the consequences of sin. I am not advocating that we “shoot our wounded.” I’m simply saying that we shouldn’t rush them back to the front lines, and we should not put them in charge of other soldiers. The church should do everything possible to minister to those who have sinned and repented. But that does not include restoring the mantle of leadership to a man who has disqualified himself and forfeited the right to lead. Doing so is unbiblical and lowers the standard God has set.

So why is the contemporary church so eager to be tolerant? I’m certain a major reason is the sin and unbelief that pervade the church. If casual Christians can lower the expectations on their leadership, they will be much more comfortable with their own sin. With lower moral standards, the church becomes more tolerant of sin and less tolerant of holiness. The “sinner-friendly” church is intolerable to God—that is a frightening condition.

Conservative Christians have for most of the previous century focused on the battle for doctrinal purity. And that is good. But we are losing the battle for moral purity. Some of the worst defeats have occurred among our more visible leaders. The church cannot lower the standard to accommodate them. We should hold it higher so we can regain purity. If we lose here, we have utterly failed, no matter how orthodox our confession of faith. We can’t win if we compromise the biblical standard of moral purity.

What should you do in the current crisis? Pray for your church’s leaders. Keep them accountable. Encourage them. Let them know you are following their godly example. Understand that they are not perfect, but continue nonetheless to call them to the highest level of godliness and purity. The church must have leaders who are genuinely above reproach. Anything less is an abomination.

Adapted from The Master’s Plan for the Church, © 1991 by John MacArthur. All rights reserved.

50 comments:

Anonymous said...

Oh, where to begin... There are so many amazing thoughts/quotes here... This is a fantastic summary of what we were trying to wade through yesterday. Perfect! Thanks for posting this. :-)

If you don't mind, I think I will copy it into my thread so it's there for future reference.

Hope you are feeling better today.

Anonymous said...

Wow, there is alot of good information here. I have been through two churches here where the pastor has sinned and both were just put in other cities to pastor kinda out of sight out of mind type deal. One of the pastors even went so far as to try to sue the church for making him step down. It is sad what some people in the church will allow.

Maryb

Anonymous said...

The Bible is clear that God always wanted us to FEAR his judgement against our sins.

Aaron's sons were killed for disobedience-Ananias and Saphira were killed because they lied to God. They were buried during church!! That sent a message "If you go to church and lie, youare goign to die"!! Some seeker-friendly program, huh??
God punished because He wanted us to FEAR Him. Not be afraid of Him but fear the penalty of our sins before Him, recognize His holiness.

He didn't want the early church started with people that thought they could lie to God and get away with it, and sit there week after week with no conviction of their sin.

For the most part, there really is no fear in a church that cares more about entertianing non-believers than raising up God-fearing disciples who can "go out" into the world and disciple others.

As Macarthur so eloquently states "the standard is lowered" and when that happens, there is no call to holiness.

Anonymous said...

That was mine above..

Chosen

Anonymous said...

"Restoration teams—equipped with manuals to instruct the church on how to reinstate their fallen pastor—wait like tow-truck drivers on the side of the highway, anticipating the next leadership “accident”."

It's as if these fallen leaders are being puppeteered on how to "look restored" so they can get back into the game as quickly as possible, not unlike fallen politicians, EX: President Clinton, even.

"Gross sin among Christian leaders is a signal that something is seriously wrong with the church.

This is an interesting statement because one would rightfully assume that it is not fair to blame the sin of one man on the "church" per se, but it does indicate that there is something else lurking beneath the surface of that fellowship, that a man like this feels he could "get away" with such a sin as adultery among his fellow brethren.

Mary made a good point in my blog about "liars" and I think it is safe to assume that if a leader in the church is having an adulterous affair that he is assuredly lying to cover it up.

She said that when someone lies, they are declaring the receiver of such lies to be worthless! That is indicative of a sad precedence.

When I was in the corporate world, a high turnover rate of employees (Even if the employees were clearly worth terminating or had valid reasons for departure) was always indicative of poor management.

It could be that the manager lacked discernment of who they should be hiring in the first place. (Not a good fit)

It could be that the manager lacked the ability to train the person(s) well.

It could be that the manager was always hiring people that were not well-suited for the position because he or she in an attempt to remain superior was always hiring inferior people.

You see, there is almost always something that upper-management could have done differently in hindsight. And as a former manager, the best way to shrink your turnover and or failures among your staff and or management team is to humbly admit your own mistakes in every matter, learn from them and never make the same mistakes again.

Maryb said...

I should of added, yes they are to be forgiven, but never be a pastor again,

Anonymous said...

El,

How can you control the fate of a church when the Senior Pastor has absolutely no influence over anyone because they have 20,000 people attending?

You are so right with your observations.

To give an example:
We periodically ask people who use our services, how they are treated by the staff.

When you are concerned about your organization you get involved. When employees know you are involved, you have accountability.

I just don't think there is as much accountability because there is not much concern...just keep bringin' in the numbers and keep building bigger buildings.

The focus is off.

I like what you aid here El:
It could be that the manager lacked discernment of who they should be hiring in the first place. (Not a good fit)

It could be that the manager lacked the ability to train the person(s) well.

Same in the church.
Interesting you used the word "discernment"--you will see what I mean when you get your "mail"(snail)

And I saw Mary's post on your blog..
Mary, I love reading from you..
It was a great observation!

Chosen

Anonymous said...

el: post away! I really enjoyed it and thought that it was timely...

Anonymous said...

chosen: I am leaning more and more to the permanent removal of pastors who are guilty of sexual sin. There may be the rare case, but it should be so rare that it is practically unheard of, IMHO.

Anonymous said...

maryb: I have heard of pastors (when we lived in Houston) who move from church to church and city to city in an attempt to hide from an adulterous past. Shameful! Any group or denomination that tolerates such behavior should be ashamed of themselves.

Anonymous said...

Thanks to all who prayed for me; I am back at the church and feeling great!

Anonymous said...

Glad you are feeling well Okie...
So it wasn't the flu!

Coincidentally, a friend of mine gave me a James MacDonald teaching today on "Purity"...
It seems when you are on a subject it just keeps hitting you from all over.

When I finish it, if it is pertinent to this post, I will send it to you.

I really appreciate your heart Okie, and that you are seeking God on this subject.

Chosen

Anonymous said...

Okie,

Do you think that if a Pastor committed adultery, that when they leave that church and start their own church, they need to inform their congregation?

Would it be deceptive to not expose this?

Thanks,
Chosen

Anonymous said...

Chosen: I love James MacDonald; I would love to see it.

I do believe that a pastor must be the most transparent person in the church - past problems, failures, all; if not, IMHO, he is being deceptive.

My past with drug and alcohol abuse, anger issues; I shared it all with the congregation while I was candidateing so that they would be able to make an informed decision given all the facts.

I believe that it is of utmost importance to be honest.

Anonymous said...

Is it just me or did it just get "dark" in here?

Looks like someone is doing a little redecorating? :-) I like it.

Randall Slack said...

el: yea, next week new carpet :)

Anonymous said...

If I can say so I don't like black backgrounds..
Maybe it brings back some unwanted memories.
It is also hard on my eyes.
I actually liked it the other way!
As they say in N.Y...
"Go Figga!" (means "go figure")!

About the restored Pastor's, it does seem that although they are never restored to their own church they either go and start their own or someone else takes them in.

It seems to me they would have more accountability to themselves and others to remain in their own church and deal with their sin there. So to me, removing them and sending them elsewhere seems like a cop-out. It is like spreading a cancer elsewhere in the body rather than containing it and dealing with it where it is.

Chosen

Anonymous said...

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200608/light_text_on_dark_background_vs_readability/

Okie,

I thought maybe I was the only one who had trouble with reading dark backgrounds...thought this was an interesting read.

Chosen

Anonymous said...

Yea, I like the blue better...for now...

Anonymous said...

Whatever it is, it is still too dark for me..when I read , it strains my eyes, then when I go to this page (white) it's like my eyes completely relax and feel better.
Thats what the article was about. I think some of the letters are missing(the site) because what I gave doesn't bring up the article (if you tried to check it out)

Anonymous said...

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200608/light_text_on_dark_background_vs_readability/

Anonymous said...

Sorry-you can delete the last-for some reason the whole address is not pasting.

Maryb said...

Ok you changed it again I like it. how are you feeling okie. Im am sadded by some of the things I have been seeing on the internet lately. Im confused to say the least.

Anonymous said...

maryb: I am feeling much better, thanks...

Anonymous said...

L-O-V-E the background!!!

It is kind of antique-looking and so easy on the eyes!!!

Thanks Okie!

You are very accomodating!

Chosen

A E A said...

Big issue. As someone that was stuck in the middle of such a problem and saw how it was handled poorly, this is a little too close to home.

We choose to forgive because we are commanded to do so.

I have been told that if one truly forgives then you will automatically trust.

My response. BALONEY!

Forgiveness and love are both acts of the will. Neither has anything to do with feelings.

Trust is earned over time and easily lost.

If someone has violated his responsibilities and is disqualified according to 1Timothy 3 then men have no right to make an exception because of the giftings of that person.

Can a leader ever be restored?

I would say yes, but it would be rare.

How long?

Until God made it apparent to all.

When trust was given naturally because over time the fruit of repentance made it hard to imagine that there was ever such a transgression.

A E A said...

Good article Okie,

I tried to post on it a couple of times but the computer had other ideas.

It was merciful to you because you guys just got the abreviated version. :)

I'm out of time, I've got a Bibles study outreach in a rural community 60 miles north.

I'll try to check in tomorrow.

Blessiongs

Anonymous said...

aea: i agree completely. Thanks for stopping by...

Anonymous said...

aea said:

If someone has violated his responsibilities and is disqualified according to 1Timothy 3 then men have no right to make an exception because of the giftings of that person.
___________________________________
Opinions aside, the word of God has spoken.

Why can't this be accepted?

Because fallen man has always tried to get around the Word of God to fit into HIS theologies.

I find it interesting that in the secular world they seem sometimes have more discernment than the Christians who try and twist the scripture in the name of "grace".

If a child has been molested by their cousin, for example, the mother would NEVER allow that child to be alone with that cousin.

If a child has been beaten and stabbed by a parent, the officials come in and take the child away and it is NEVER allowed to be with that parent.

It's just common sense that these people who are the perpetrators have lost their privelege. It has nothing to do with forgiveness.

Breaking the law in the secular world has a penalty. God would never tell the murderer, "I'll pardon you --I'll put you back on the streets"

The person can even be saved in jail and the judge does not change his verdict--You break the law, there's a penalty. An adulterer has broken the law. God says there is a penalty-you forfeit the privelege of leading the sheep. Now, God can fogive him, but that doesn't change the penalty.

What do you think Okie?

BTW Okie, you will get one on forgiveness from James Macdonald with the others.

Chosen

Anonymous said...

chosen: I don't know why...

A E A said...

Chosen:

If I might add to your post,

The one thief on the cross turned to Jesus and said, "Lord, remember me when you come into Your kingdom".

Jesus answered and said, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with Me in paradise."

Jesus accepted his confession of faith and gave him and incredible promise.

What Jesus didn't say was, "Since you figured out who I was and made a confession of faith, you can come off of your cross and get on with your life.

The thief still had the consequences of his sin to deal with.

Anonymous said...

Very good points aea!

That's a great illustration of both the mercy and grace of God and also the judgement of God literally at the same time!

Just think, one of those men would have been set free, had the Jews pardoned Jesus.

Chosen

Anonymous said...

aea: Well said...

Anonymous said...

I correct what I said...One of the men who WOULD have been on the cross WAS pardoned because Jesus was crucified. (and not spared by the Jews)

So there are many lessons to be learned at the cross.

Chosen

BadMoonRising said...

Okie,

I did some research on John MacArthur and from what I could determine in a very brief internet search, (and please correct me if I am wrong) he does not believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit for today. He said it was dangerous to say "the Lord told me". I think it is more dangerous to limit the leading of the Holy Sprit to ones own interpretation of scripture. How many denominations and fractures of those denominations exist today because there are many different interpretations of scripture?

I am very thankful the Holy Sprit still speaks to us today! Most who believe as John apparently does, have an interesting interpretation of I Corinthians 13:10 "But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away." Replacing “that which is perfect” with the Bible. And don’t dare disagree with them because then you are "saying the bible is not perfect". I do not think the Holy Spirit decided to stop working when the cannon was established, or when the printing press was invented. (This did not happen in the 1st century by the way) There will be a time when we don't need the gifts of the Spirit, but certainly we still need them today. What did Paul mean here with "When that which is perfect has come"? Paul either was referring here to the second coming of Jesus, or when we are translated into His image on that last day. Look at verse 12 “For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.” Do we now see Jesus face to face? Do we now know him as fully as He knows us? NO! But, PTL that is our future!

When considering John’s advise, we should consider what tools be believes are available to the church. If we believe we are limited to only how we interpret the bible, and there is no active dynamic Spirit of God speaking to us, then you might agree with his advice. But if you believe God still speaks to His people through the person of the Holy Spirit - then we can at allow for the Lord to give us direction concerning the restoration of any person. I also believe there is abundant scriptural precedent for the restoration of leaders, David, Peter and even Samson are just a few examples.

Finally I am sure John MacArthur is a good man, and great pastor. But that does not mean we have to agree with everything he believes or teaches.

Blessings,

BMR

Anonymous said...

From John Macarthur:

Question

What are the spiritual gifts and how do I discover mine?

Answer

We’ve talked about this a lot in the past, but not recently. The first thing I would suggest for you—and I’m not selfish in doing this—is to get the book The Church: the Body of Christ, which I’ve written. It’s in the bookstore and it goes into all of the details about spiritual gifts. Suffice it to say this: if you want to know what the spiritual gifts are, read Romans 12, verses 3 and following. Then read 1 Corinthians 12, verses 1 to the end of the chapter (verse 28 would probably be far enough). Read those two chapters and make a list of the spiritual gifts. Be sure to distinguish which ones are permanent, edifying gifts and which ones are temporary sign gifts. When your list is complete, of those that are permanent, edifying gifts, you have some basis to discover your own.

You say, “Then how do I discover my gifts?” Simple. Walk in the Spirit, let the Holy Spirit do what He will through you, and you’ll see what He does with you. If you feel a desire towards some thing or another, follow that—if you sense that God has created that desire within you. I really think that God works through our desires. I was telling somebody this the other day: if God really wanted to lead you and He wanted to lead you the simplest way possible, how best could He lead you? By making you desire what He wanted for you. Right? Well, I assume that God is way ahead of us in that area. If we delight in the Lord, Psalm 37 says, He’ll give us the desires of our heart. In other words, if He is first, He’ll plant those desires and then fulfill them. And so you can follow your desire!

When I entered into the ministry, I didn’t even understand what spiritual gifts were! I was preaching and teaching and exercising my gifts long before I knew what they were! It isn’t nearly so important that I’ve analyzed myself as that I’ve been obedient to the Holy Spirit and followed the desire that He places in my heart.

Walk in the Spirit and He will do through you what must be done. Your gifts will be manifest.

BMR,
___________________________________
You are a teacher of the word.
Do your homework.

At least make the correct references about WHAT SPECIFICALLY John Macarthur is talking about in your comment "When that which is perfecT",.You knwo what he was talkinf if you read that commentary. You are being deceptive.

He is referring to the gift of TONGUES specifically, not the spriritual gists as a whole.
He is not against the spiritual gifts.

Anonymous said...

John Macarthur on "Tongues"

Question

In Acts 2:4 and 1 Corinthians 12, it talks about the tongue as a spiritual gift. My question is, "How is the tongue supposed to be used today, and how can we misuse it?"

Answer

It is very clear in Acts 2, that God gave to the Apostles the ability to speak in languages that they did not know. As a result, it says, people were hearing in all different kinds of languages, the wonderful works of God. Now, I believe that the purpose of that gift was to establish the fact that a supernatural presence, a supernatural message, was to be proclaimed. It call the attention of everyone who was hearing this.

Some of the people concluded that they were drunk because it was early in the morning, but it collected the people around the phenomena of that wondrous ability to speak in those languages which they didn't know--that was a Holy Spirit miracle. Then when the crowd was all gathered, Peter stood up and preached in a language that everybody understood and in his own native tongue the gospel of Jesus Christ and 3,000 people were saved and the Church was born.

I see in that then that the tongues were a sign, a sign of the miraculous power of God. A sign of supernatural presence which drew the people together and made the message that was preached more powerful, more acceptable, more authentic in their eyes. So, in that occasion we see it clearly as a sign that God was speaking and when God got their attention, then came the message of the gospel. By the way, if you follow that through, I believe "tongues" probably occurred in Acts 8 even though it doesn't say that, but where you have the church moving out into Samaria, and then in chapter 10, definitely occurred when the church moves to the Gentiles, and then later on in 19, when John the Baptist's disciples were brought into the church, you have it again.

I believe in the Book of Acts the reason that you have the "tongues" repeated again is because every time the next dimension of people were added to the church it was important that they have the same phenomena so that they would know that they were being added to the same body. So that the sign given of the Day of Pentecost was repeated at each new phase of the church.

Do you remember that the gospel was to go forth and they were to be witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria, and the world? When the gospel came to the Samaritans there was the same phenomena; when it came to the Gentiles there was the same phenomena; when those who followed John the Baptist were brought in, they saw the same phenomena. Peter came back and reported (you remember) to the council that "on the Gentiles came the same thing that came on us." So as the Lord built the church they had this same sign, the same supernatural sign so that the Jews would not think that they received something special that Samaritans and Gentiles didn't get. So, it was a sign gift.

Now you come into 1 Corinthians 12-14, it is still a sign gift but it was being perverted in the Corinthian Church, and I believe that it was being mixed and mingled with a lot of ecstatic speech that was a part of the pagan religion of that day. It was still (if it was used properly) to be a sign gift.

Paul, then in 1 Corinthians 12-14 regulates it. He says how it is to function, he first of all introduces it as a gift in chapter 12. He tells at the end of chapter 12 that it is an unimportant gift. In chapter 13 he says "love" is much more important. In chapter 14 "edification" is much more important. He says, "Women are never to exercise it. It is never to more than two or three people. It's never to be without interpretation." But it doesn't change the nature of it--it was a sign gift--a sign of the presence of God and a sign that God was about to speak so that when the speaker spoke they would know it was from God.

In that sense it is a sign that we don't need any more because when a speaker speaks today we know whether he is from God or not by how he is consistent with Scripture. I don't need "signs and wonders" to attest to a prophet--if he sticks with the Book I know he speaks for God. But in that day when there was no New Testament to compare him with, God gave, as it says in 2 Corinthians, "the gifts of an apostle, and signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds" (12:12).

So, "tongues" was a sign gift (and I am giving you a condensed version, again you can get the book on "Tongues." I hate to keep saying that, but it there available if you want one--pick one up "on me."). But the gift of "tongues" was a sign gift.

Now, I believe it has ceased. I believe that it has passed away. 1 Corinthians 13, "Whether there be tongues they shall...(and it uses a reflective form of the verb) . . . cease by themselves." I believe when the end of the Apostolic Era came--tongues ceased. I believe that you can chronicle through the history of the church the cessation of tongues--they didn't exist, except in aberrant forms.

It was revived in the early part of the 1900's and brought back in as if it were some legitimate gift--it is my conviction that it has no place in the church today--no place. It was part of the "Signs of an Apostle," such as healing, and the gift of miracles, which I see as "dunamis" (Greek) or the gift of "power"--that is, to cast out demons on the spot--at will.

So, I think that it was one of those temporary gifts that passed away, was used to signify the spokesman for God who were speaking, so that the people would know they spoke for God, which we now know by whether they stick with the Word.

Now you say, "Now, what is it that people are doing today?" Well, I think, the people who are speaking in what they call "Tongues" could be explained in many ways:

1. I think much of it is learned behavior, just learned behavior--they learned how to do it. They are in a group that does it, in fact, I have heard it in many places around the country, I have listened to it on tape. When I was working on the book I got involved in studying some of the reports of it, and it is very interesting that much of it is the same language and the same repeated symbols--it is a non-language, but it is very often learned behavior.

2. It can also be explained as sort of mental perocisms (sp) where you sort of flip out in a sort of self-hypnotic situations.

3. Some of it can be demonic.

There are other explanations, but I see that it has ceased from a Biblical viewpoint, and has no function in the church today.


Added to Bible Bulletin Board's "MacArthur’s Questions and Answers" by:

Tony Capoccia
Bible Bulletin Board
Box 314
Columbus, New Jersey, USA, 08022
Websites: www.biblebb.com and www.gospelgems.com
Email: tony@biblebb.com
Online since 1986

Anonymous said...

Tony said: "So as the Lord built the church they had this same sign, the same supernatural sign so that the Jews would not think that they received something special that Samaritans and Gentiles didn't get. So, it was a sign gift."

What about Acts 10:44-47?:

While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.

45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.

Then Peter answered,

47 "Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"

If you want to believe that the so-called sign gifts have ceased, so be it. But I do not believe that you can properly defend such a position from the Word.

Tongues and prophecy, as well as healing's and miracles were reported by the church fathers far into the third century.

Anonymous said...

Okie,

What's the problem with Acts 44? It is in agreement that the Gentiles got the gift.
Read over that paragraph again and you will see this.

As far as the rest you posted, there is no dispute that the Holy Spirit falls on believers.

The question in whether the TRUE gifts of tongues is in operation today.

You are also confusing Healings and the SIGN GIFT of Miracles.
They are not the same.

A true gift of miracles would be a paralyzed person with a spinal cord tear being healed.
Another would be a man being raised from the dead.
How about a missing limb miraculously appearing?

Are you saying that there are men aroudn today that have this gift that was given tot he Apostles?
Why didn't one come forwadr to heal Christopher Reeve?
You woudl think just ONE person woudl have stepped forward.

The sign gift of Miracles suthenticated that the Apostles were from God because of the miracles they performed. That is not operating today because we have the Bible to confirm what the apostles did int he name of Jesus. At that time they did the miracles to prove who Jesus was.


If people claim to have this TRUE gift today, then they ought to be in the hospitals healing people and raising people fromt he dead.
Usually people want to say "Oh, it is happening in some remote Island in the South Pacific"..it is never verified.

So that is the gift of Miracles.
Healings are not the same thing.
Okie, it is not a matter of saying "Well, if you want to believe this, then go ahead"

This is about spending much time rightly dividing the Word of God.

Also, Tony did not write that.
As I wrote in the heading "From John Macarthur"

Tony's site just posts these transcripts.
In fact, Tony is a very busy man (he has a full time job , is a Pastor and hosts an amazing website for the last 10 yrs..but welcomes e-mails.

He is the most generous man of God I know.
He is the ONLY Pastor who has ever really helped me in my Christian walk. My own Pastor didn't have the time of day for me.

I hope you dig deeper on this subject.

I know it will challenge you.

Anonymous said...

I meant "whats the problem with Acts 10:44
I am sure you knew that.

Anonymous said...

I also wanted to ay something else about the sign gift of Miracles.

This not only proved that the apostles were chosen of God by the Lord, but it also authenicated the Apostles THEMSELVES...if they were able to heal the sick, raise the dead, then they were PROVEN to be Apostles.

I am sorry for the typos
I am very busy today and rushes a bit typing.

Anonymous said...

http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/sg1856.htm

I wanted to share this.

Anonymous said...

Sign gifts were not limited to the Apostles. Check out Stephen and Philip in the book of Acts. The same Greek words are used of them as of the Apostles.

Anonymous said...

anonymous: We could continue to banter back and forth on this issue, but I prefer not to. You obviously have your strong convictions and I mine. So I believe that it is best left at that...
Grace and peace.

Anonymous said...

Okay Okie.


the "miracles were done through the Apostles AND their associates.

Still I ask, have you seen anyone with this gift in today's times raise someone from the dead or heal a paralyzed person? How about make a blind person see again? Or grow a limb that was missing?

Isn't a teacher in the word supposed to have a "teachable spirit"?

One more question.
If someone in your congregation asked you this same question, would you just brush them off the same way you have here, if they didn't accept your postion?

Very sad indeed.

Grace and peace to you as well.

Anonymous said...

chosen: You are a hard person to figure out. Last week I was a hero (because I agreed with you) and Bill Walden was a villain (because he disagreed with you). This week I am (like Bill Walden) a villain because I dare to disagree with you (which is not really disagreeing with you, but rather with John Macarthur).

Now John Macarthur is a fine man and an excellent Bible teacher, for whom I have the utmost respect; however, I do not agree with him on all issues and I am sure that he does not agree with me on all issues; and that is acceptable as our positions are within the ream of orthodoxy.

However, my respect for you is diminishing rapidly. You accuse me of not having a "teachable spirit" because I wont agree with your position. You accuse me of brushing you off because I won't argue with you, telling me that (in your words) it is "very sad indeed."

Your conduct and accusations in these posts demonstrate a lack of the very thing you accuse me of, a "teachable spirit." You have demonstrated by your posts here and on other blogs that your opinion (which really is John Macarthur's) is the only true opinion and the only one that matters.

If being unwilling to argue with you is brushing you off, then I am guilty. If disagreeing with you makes me a villain (like Bill Walden) then once again I am guilty.

A E A said...

Chosen, don't make the mistake that miracles and healings happened at the whims of the Apostles or their associates.

Paul left Thophimus sick in Miletus (2Tim 4)why didn't he just heal him?

Why didn't he heal Timothy?

The miracles recorded in Acts were in a span of roughly 30 years.

I had a severe cavity (I could put a tooth pick in the hole) in one molar and was unable to go to a dentist, I was prayed for. A few days later I noticed it didn't hurt. I eventually went to the dentist and there was not cavity or even a sign of one.

I have seen a few (not many) Dr. stumping healings, I've seen God stretch provisions on the mission field for people that were being ministered to.

It never occurred to me or the team to call CNN to verify the miracle, we simply gave thanks.

Okie's first statement to you was that you couldn't make a Biblical case for miracles and miraculous healings to cease before the return of Jesus.

You used human logic and experience to make your case. Why don't those that have this gift go to the hospitals, etc.

Those that have the legitimate gift today probably don't even know that they have it, and it is still qualified by God's will.

Why didn't Jesus heal everybody at the pool in John 5?

Who verified the miracle? See how absurd this can get?

You can't make a Biblical case for the gifts to cease and experience doesn't trump that fact.

A E A said...

Okie, we are praying for Oklahoma and those affected by the storms.

Anonymous said...

AEA..
I would hardly compare tooth pain with being raised from the dead.

The point is not that ALL had to have experienced miracles, the point is why. Also you do know that in the Bible there is mention that there were more miracles done that were not even mentioned.

When I see a paralyzed man get up and walk and a man raised from the dead, then the true gift will be operating. As I said, if there was even ONE person that had this TRUE gift we would have record of it.

I have given enough references and messages from Macarthur, yet I am sure no one has even taken the time to read them because if it goes against what you have believed (and most CC Pastors will not go against what CC stands for).. you will not even read anything contrary.
As I said, HEALINGS are not the same as the sign gift MIRACLES.
I am sure you didn't bother to read anything I forwarded.

You know, if everyone agrees, then there seems to be unity.

As someone takes a stand against something, there is opposition.
Okie began this believing that a fallen Pastor cannot be restored.

Then a friend comes along that disagrees and all of a sudden he now agrees with that Pastor.

If people would stand for the truth, then they wouldn't be concerned with pleasing their friends.

So when you can find one person who was raised from the dead, or one paralytic man get up and walk, let me know. I'd be interested.

Perhaps your cavity was self-diagnosed because you had pain?

Nerve pain comes and goes. Pain can come from the sinus' and from tooth sensitivity. Or even a common cold.

And if you had an infection under the gumline, it can self correct.
Thats not what we are talking about here. Raising someone from the dead is hardly a comparison to your tooth pain. I do believe that prayer works, and I do believe that an infection can subside or even a healign can occur- I see it all the time, but we are not talkign about HEALINGS. DO you understand the difference between healigns and the sign gift of Miracles?

Well, unless one is willing to be teachable, he will hold onto whatever he believed. I think we all need to be open to learn.

And people ought to stop defending everyone else and let that person speak for himself.

If I was having a conversationw ith someone at church, woudl you just barge in? Thats the problem with blogs. Everyone knows everyone else's business, and everyone becomes a part of everyone else's business.

I'm done.
I just hope you keep studying this subject.

Anonymous said...

aea: Thank you for your prayers. This is the worst tornado season in 10 years for Oklahoma. Several homes have been destroyed; millions of $ in damages; people have died, others have been hurt (physically and emotionally).